Okay. Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. The last one to be accepted was the bodily assumption of Mary. Moreover, there was diversity of thought among Jews until the second century after Christ over what constituted the Hebrew canon. I dont know if I would. Worshiping Mary as if she takes the place of God and is the one who secures our salvation as if she died on the cross or something like that. Anyone who denies this dogma automatically contradicts scripture because if Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. Though, I will say the Septuagint was completed only within a few centuries, possibly even one century, by the time of Jesus crucifixion. I also want to thank Trent for agreeing to our second debate and we hit over 800, I saw in there, which actually our first debate, so praise Jesus for that. Christie also served as an analyst for The Score Television Network. Trent had mentioned about, Well, it could mean sister-in-law. Well, the apostle John actually quoted from the Old Testament, from the Septuagint, frequently. Thank you very much, Steve. I put you on the spot with that, so theres no worries. So youre going to agree it does not deny Mary was assumed into heaven? Okay. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? And I can honestly say the same thing about Mary especially with the oppression of Rome and the Jews especially after Jesus was born. Im not sure that that is in Genesis 19:9. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. Well, why would I believe that Marys parents-. Christie claims we can know God inspired the Protestant Old Testament canon because God chose Paul, a Pharisee, to be an apostle. Were going to move into a time of closing statements. But since it allows for Mary to have died, then it is much of a partial contradiction to scripture as the dogma of Jehovahs Witnesses of Jesus being the son of God and Michael. So whether we are discussing the Marian dogmas, the papacy, the purpose of baptism or communion, or the biblical Canon, the real authority behind these debates is whether you trust in the sufficiency of God [inaudible 01:52:23] Scripture to reel itself to you or to the Magisterium, which often conflicts with it. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. Okay. Christie, 47, played for the Bills from 1992 to 2000. He says, this is a question for Steve. And then she was placed to be serving within the temple. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. He was put on a cross. Thats what I believe. Even if you have to have some things in essential form, I think he would have to pick someone pretty late in church history, at least over a thousand or 1500 years or 1800 years. And it is from the pure fiction of the proto evangelium of James, Odes of Solomon, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Transitus of Pseudo-Melito, and other false gospels and apocryphal literature, some attached with anathemas by early popes for entertaining these works. In fact, when it is used in the Septuagint to talk about people who have different fathers or mothers, it is only ever used to describe people in the case of half siblings, of having different fathers, not different mothers . So if Jesus has adelphi, he must have had sisters who were born of Mary. So Im going to ask the question again and see if youll answer it. Though, I think that is a salvation issue actually. Theres no divine judgment on Mary in any form described here in Mark chapter three. Thank you very much, Trent. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". Yet, if Mary did not inherit the stain of original sin passed down from Adam, she would not have died and therefore no need to rescue her from death before her earthly life ended. So you cant use Matthew 1:25 to prove Mary and Joseph had sexual relations. Psalm 130, verse eight, promises God will redeem Israel from all its iniquities. I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. Isaiah 49:26 describes God as savior and Redeemer echoed in Galatians 4:4-5. Otherwise things leading up to it, we could interpret them either in a broader sense. Both the Old and the New Testaments also use firstborn to indicate firstborn among other siblings, such as Esau being Isaacs firstborn and Ruben as Jacobs first born, meaning they were not firstborns out of their fathers wombs, considering men dont have wombs, but firstborn among their other children. And weve also addressed that frequently at catholic.com. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " That seems to be something that went without contention. He might bring it up in his rebuttal. He has the burden of proving that the dogmas contradict scripture. I know not man. Its the same Greek words that Mary says when she says, I know not man.. The word paraphrase very frequently provides adequate description of the relationship (Introducing the Apocrypha, 22). He had cancer and heart disease. Im throwing you a bone here. My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. So is this your view, Jesus and his siblings have the same mother but they have different fathers? Luke does use monogenes to talk about the death of ones only child, for example, in different parts of his gospel. No, Bauckham talks about this in his article that in some context, Jesus would be referred to as the son of Joseph, especially among those who were not familiar with his family life in Nazareth. It is not considered inspired. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. We see this in Luke 3:1, and if these siblings are Jesuss adoptive siblings from Josephs previous marriage, theres absolutely no contradiction here whatsoever. So I think Catholics have a way to honor Mary as the mother of God without divinizing her. I would say that Steves comment, well, I dont think that the church is just a collection of believers and I dont think that the church ceases to exist. Not just saying that because theyre paying me, although that definitely helps. I mean, I have to really think about that. In order to justify that claim, Christie would have to present a standard that tells us what writings prior to Christ are inspired and why we should accept that particular standard. Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. My screen name is BornAgainRN, so you can look at me that way. Removing this book will also remove your associated ratings, reviews, and reading sessions. So that would mean if youre the firstborn, that youre going to have other children. Now in the Septuagint as well as in the New Testament, adelphos is used to talk about people who have the same father but different mothers. Click the link in the description below to go through to the greatest Catholic prayer and meditation app on the planet. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. Second thing I want to point out is you should consider joining our locals community. When it comes to savior, the word is used in a lot of different ways in the whole of scripture, not just in the New Testament. It doesnt even imply that. Of the 336 field goals Steve Christie kicked during his 15-year National Football League career, none was more important than the one he booted in overtime on Jan. 3, 1993, at the stadium then known as Rich. So I would actually tell people to focus more on that. Okay. An interview with Steve Baughman. The question for Joseph-. So they probably were aware of something very special about her at that time. Steve Christie also has his own website. Also the Greek word for brother, its not always you to represent full brothers. Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? You can also reach me on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube. Okay. This was the view that St. Augustine said, when he said that in Psalm 69:5, the mother is not married, but Israel and the brethren are the other sons of Israel who spurn him. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. Im not sure why she would be surprised when told that shes going to have a son, given that under Jewish law, she and Joseph were free to engage in conjugal relations even right at that moment after the angel had left. All right. But in the infancy narrative, were just talking about the birth of the firstborn in accord with The Mosaic Law. I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. September 16, 2018 by Randal. Thank you and God bless everyone. Okay. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. Well, the relevance is the fact that the word adelphos for brother, the primary meaning means a biological sibling, so unless theres a reason in the context of [inaudible 01:13:28]. You can finish your thought, if you want real quick, Steve. But if their authority is a Roman Catholic church and the Magisterium, then it becomes an authority issue because then youre submitting to an authority that is also teaching something different about salvation that has nothing to do with these dogmas. So Im not saying that Catholics are actively worshiping Mary or statues of Mary, but we have to be careful with the word of veneration. In Isaiah 7:16 it talks about a time before a child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. First, Christies argument for the Pharisees canon being identical to modern Protestant Old Testament comes from a selective quotation from my colleague Jimmy Akin. Heres one, Trent, I dont like and I wonder what you think about it. All right, so the Bible does not say that Mary committed a sin. And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. And the fact that Trent is saying that the holy family would not need to apply to that, hes imputing his Catholic theology into the text. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Or Enoch and Elijah who never died because they were assumed alive into heaven. He says, Trent, the proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believed that which is false. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive story. I bet maybe you would kneel before it in prayer, you would weep to see that through this means our salvation was procured. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. So to talk about things that came up in this debate, there are things that came up that were not debating, things like Sola Scriptura, the history of the Marian dogmas. Sponsored by SaltLending.com and Epic.Tech. Okay. But those who knew the family, why he is called the son of Mary is interesting, and a good explanation is that he was born of Mary, and that Mary was Josephs second wife. I was wrong there. Well, it is an argument that actually I hear from a lot of contemporary Catholic apologists. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. He writes, As a Pharisee, the apostle Paul would have understood the Law and the Prophets to refer to only those writings found in Protestant Old Testaments today. But this argument fails for the following reasons. Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. So these Marian Dogmas are not optional or fitting for the faithful Catholic to believe, but are required and binding to the Catholic to remain in good standing in communion with the Roman Catholic church, despite them all contradicting God breathed scripture. And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? Timothy Michael Law, who serves as the co-editor of the Oxford Handbook on the Septuagint, says the deuterocanonical books were included in the Septuagint and that it would also be mistaken to imagine that they have never been read as divine Scripture.. Should it be included in the Old Testament canon? But were not debating whether the Marian Dogmas have a historical foundation in the writings of the church fathers. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. So was Jesus free from sin and he also died? First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. Your view is that the word adelphos, what it means in the brethren is that its talking about Jesus and siblings, they have the same mother but they have different fathers. . Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? Dont have the context of this question. Sure. Jesus does not rebuke her. Finally, lets look at the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And I already cited Greek scholars like Bill Mounce and New Testament scholars, like Richard Bauckham, who agree with me that adelphi has a broader semantic range than what Steve has brought up here. These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary contradicts scripture in the following ways. Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. But the immaculate conception was declared 15 years or so before that. In fact, Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, and John Bergsma has provided evidence in his book Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls that John belonged to an Essene sect at Qumran, whose members embraced a wider canon than the one Christie is defending. The fact that Mary died doesnt prove that she committed a sin any more than the fact that Jesus died does not prove that he inherited sin or committed a sin. Were going to be taking those questions. Weve got lots of great content that comes out weekly more seriously, and you dont want to miss it, so click subscribe. Could interpret them either in a broader sense a question for Steve fathers... 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